Kojima ‘must make players accept Snake becomes a demon in The Phantom Pain’

With MGSV, Kojima goes through great lengths to involve the player in Big Boss’s actions and emotions. This is necessary because in this game, Big Boss will not be heroic like before, and instead it will tell the story of his downfall. On Twitter, Kojima took the time to explain how he intends to handle this, and how he’s trying to deal with what he calls the ‘character versus player’ paradox.

Hitchcock had implemented the way of “being involved” drama in latter period of his work in UK and suspense he made in US in order to have closer distance b/w audience and protagonist to feel empathy with. Instead of detective or trained spy, an ordinary person like an audience gets involved in big incident. For this reason audience feels empathy.

If you state in gaming, FPS applies to that method. Unlike movies, you can maneuver yourself in games. Thus the more distance it gets the more complex past or specific setting protagonist has. Such as Snake a hero from past wars. How can we cover the gap b/w them?

MGSV-The-Phantom-Pain-Ash-Face

To bring Player to the same level of emotion with protagonist, MGS always fuss over that part. It’s the reason Raiden appeared in MGS2, the reason you swear vengeance in TPP after your MB built in PW was destroyed in GZ.

I intentionally design the memory of Player & protagonist will cross over thru the game. For Players who haven’t played series, TPP provides you the setting where protagonist has just been waken from 9 yrs of coma. In such case Player should be able to play the game without any info about PW or GZ incidents.

I used such metaphor like Gillian in Snatcher had an amnesia, so as in Policenauts. But I must say MGS users are special. They have vicarious experiences of Snake’s suffering journey for 27 real years. Players who’ve played few MGS, aged with the Snakes and share the memories & emotions. That’s the strong point of long-lived series. For fans who really love the heroic Snakes, I must make them accept the Snakes fallen into the demon in TPP. We have to head off while the end of story is already fixed. This is the hardest part, but not depicting villain, hero fallen into demon.

Kojima has compared Snake’s situation several times to that of Walter White in Breaking Bad: you can see that what he does is morally wrong, but at the same time the viewer can understand his actions and thus empathize with him. Kojima wants to take the same approach for Big Boss’s story in Metal Gear Solid V.

Source: Hideo Kojima Twitter

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  • BigBossMisko

    It´s breaking my heart to see beloved Naked Snake to transform into (maybe) evil Big Boss as we know him from Metal Gear (1,2). But we shouldnt forget that he did a lot of good things in the series (saved the world a lot of times) – just simply – we can call him HERO – LEGEND – thats BIG BOSS for me. Even he is going to do some bad things – every evil has its beginning – it doesnt start at ONE , its start at ZERO :))

  • Janeo

    It seems like this isn’t just gonna be one of those a good person does bad things but regrets them stories, big boss is really going to become an evil person and I’m going to love experiencing it. It’s already hard to see big boss torturing Huey I can’t wait to see what other things he will do that we thought the old big boss would never do.

    • The Solid Grape

      I hope he fires a nuke at Zero from his new Metal Gear at the cost of innocent lives or something THAT would be evil………and badass

      • George Sears

        And we push the button ourselves, in-gameplay.

        • The Solid Grape

          Hell yeah!

    • Cyberlum

      Kojima already retconned Big Boss being evil in MGS4. Venom Snake will probably receive Breaking Bad treatment.

      • Janeo

        Just because he admitted he could have done things differently doesn’t mean he never did some evil things kojima didn’t retcon anything. I don’t know what breaking bad treatment is though I never watched the show

  • Cartmangus

    I’m probably more excited for Big Boss the character than I am for the story itself. Can’t wait to see how he handles it all.

    • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

      Well, that mainly is the story. It really seems to be about Big Boss development and his relationship to the other characters.

      • Cartmangus

        Yeah you’re right. That said there’s obviously going to be story stuff going on. Cipher, XOF, ‘Weapon to surpass Metal Gear’ etc.. Just meant that as of right now I am probably more excited for his character alone than the plot

        • The Solid Grape

          I think the character of Big Boss is part of the main plot this time around(if it wasn’t ever before) because this is called The Phantom Pain. Its about how Big Boss, Kaz and the survivors of MSF feel and do for the sake of revenge. I guess the revenge will just spiral out of control and they will unknowingly stumble upon Zero’s final solution(for peace that is) “The System”/a protype for the Sons of The Patriots/Metal Gear hybrid or something like that.

      • César H. Sandoval

        I’m excited about the posibillity of him finally meeting his sons, “sins of the Father” and all that…

        • Janeo

          I can’t wait to see how he reacts when he finds out he has sons. Maybe kaz is the one to tell him or perhaps ocelot tells him then he is angry at kaz for keeping it from him

  • Anonymous GX

    Can’t wait for this arc to end so we can see the rise of Solid Snake, the hero. I miss the MGS2 arc. All political espionage, no personal drama involved.

    • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

      Huh? Every Metal Gear is filled with personal drama.

      • César H. Sandoval

        I think Snake was more or less Drama-free in MGS1, with him being cold as a stone in most situations and hiding his feelings until the Meryl tweest maybe, but the characters around him have tons of personal drama over then, that’s for sure.

        • SolidKenny87

          Just because he does a good job at hiding his feelings doesn’t mean he doesn’t have them. Just watch the scene with him and Naomi, in the prison cell. That’s when he started to open up more.

          • SolidKenny87

            http://www.twitlonger.com/show/9v48j6

            ^This tweet by Kojima sums up my feelings about Solid Snake pretty well. I’d also recommend reading Project Itoh’s novelization of MGS4. It’s Snake’s final mission, told through Otacon’s perspective. I was amazed at how well Itoh understood Solid Snake. Even Kojima praised Itoh for “reading between the lines” in the book’s Afterward.

          • Eric Otness

            Kojima also said, repeatedly, that he’d retire from the series. Not exactly someone you can trust.
            And also, Kojima also made clear that Solid Snake was “a created monster” with “no feelings or human emotions, just gets the mission done” and this was in his commentary for MGS3. Heck, it’s the primary reason why he even created Naked Snake.

    • SolidKenny87

      I thought everything about Raiden in MGS2 was about his personal drama. (Identity issues, troubled childhood, love problems etc.)

      • Anonymous GX

        Well I’m talking about Solid Snake more, he never had anything personal going on. Even to the point of having no problem trying to kill himself in MGS4 in order to prevent the biological spread of FoxDie. Any other time in the series he was wholly political and was well-educated in US and foreign warfare. He never cared about drama, ever.

        • SolidKenny87

          I hate the idea that, if you’re able to not turn into a douche like Big Boss in TPP, it means you haven’t gone through enough bad shit and had a perfectly happy life.

          http://www.twitlonger.com/show/9v48j6

          “Every hero from any animation and cartoon during my childhood bore sorrow. They were monsters which were created and raised by “evil side.” The stories were about their lonely battle. “Kamen Rider(masked rider)”, Tiger Mask”, The Legend of Kamui” and “Devil Man.” Snake from MGS is also the hero from Showa era who stands at the same position.”

          Also, Snake actually did have trouble shooting himself. He pulled the trigger, but moved it away from himself at the last second. Not saying that he wouldn’t have gone through with it eventually, but still, he valued his life too much to throw it away so easily.

          • SolidKenny87

            Was he being political when he sorrowfully discussed his past with Naomi? Was he being political when he later told her “I don’t blame you for wanting me dead”? Was he being political in his time in an anti-Metal Gear Non-Government Organization? Was he being at all political when he teached Raiden to find his own life (other than when he was dismissing the idea of politics. “The Patriots are a kind of on-going fiction too, come to think of it”)?

            The point of MGS is to liberate yourself from petty norms and politics and find your own path. Snake learned not to be a prisoner to his genes in MGS1, Raiden learned not to be a prisoner of the memes of his childhood, and of society, in MGS2 (and re-learned them in MGS4. Rising isn’t canon youtube(DOT)com/watch?v=QA9XLqdYfrU ), and Big Boss learned not to be bound to the scene of his era (he didn’t start going down a dark path until he threw The Boss’ bandanna into the ocean.)

  • Golgari

    Awesome thing is that with the latest traler people were more excited about Big Boss character than for the story. That shows clearly that Kojima tried to avoid spoilers as much as possible with it’s fantastic trailers. I’m sure that people will be blown away by the story in MGSV.

    Now Kojima Release 30 minutes demo gameplay. Please…

    • Venom Snake

      All i want is Kojima to Officially announce The PC Version when he will reveal the Release date, that’s all i want, Kojima to say that the game is coming X /X/ XXXX on PS3, PS4, X360, X1 and PC!

      That would make me the happiest Person on The World!

      And yes, my first “Date” with MGS was The Boss, “Snake Eater/Subsistence” then later around 2009 i re-Discovered PC Gaming and how good it is to use a Mouse, so i want my Favorite Franchise to also come to my Favorite Gaming Platform.

      Yes, Snake Eater was that good that for 3 or 4 year i was playing on PS2, not PC, but i don’t want to do this again and to play on PS4 for The Next 3 years!

      • Janeo

        I don’t like playing any games on PC. Console is so much more comfortable for me and don’t you have to keep upgrading your PC to play the new games. The only games I ever really played on PC are heroes and star wars knights of the old republic which I really liked. I can’t even imagine playing mgs on PC though it would just feel to uncomfortable

        • Venom Snake

          That is for you, but since around 2009 i got so used to Aiming with My Mouse, that i want MGSV on PC, and Kojima wants it too, but i think he is waiting for the Game to have an Official Release date and say:

          “Metal Gear solid V The Phantom Pain is coming in XX/XX/XXXX on PS3, PS4, Xbox 360, Xbox One and PC”

          THAT would just be great and Raise Metal Gear Popularity and Extend Metal Gear Audience to Steam/Windows users, which are A LOT of people!

          • Datguy8923

            That’s Konami’s decision, and I think Konami pretty much doesn’t know PC exists still.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            Rising came out for PC.

          • Datguy8923

            Well I stand corrected.

          • Venom Snake

            Yep, is sad, and i hope Kojima will convince Konami that there is a PC Market who wold buy MGSV, plus as you can see, what Kojima wants with TPP, is to Raise MGS Popularity, from little Gameplay changes, to The Change of Hayter.
            This time he wants as much people as possible to play it, so that is why he changed Hayter, to give snake a Voice that can be taken seriously by Everyone, a more Realistic Snake!

            Here is how i see it:

            Hayter Snake: – Kevin Conroy Batman
            Kiefer Snake: – Christian Bale Batman

  • John Doe

    I accept it! Give us a release date already

    • Venom Snake

      Along side The Official PC Announcement!

  • Zero

    I’m honest, i’m still learning to accept BB turns evil in the end of TPP. I was kinda shocked to see BB this way. Poor Big Boss :(

    • Venom Snake

      Yeah, he doesn’t know what is waiting him…hold on, why am i talking about me like this?

      Just kidding!

  • Outer Heaven

    Its guna be so hard to accept this once hero naked snake now an evil man killing his own men. Snakes have always been heroes in MGS series so this is a first. I’m going to struggle with this game.

    • Eric Otness

      My main problem is that it already conflicts with MGS4. Kojima really screwed up there. Maybe if he actually made sure not to make Big Boss sympathetic at all in MGS4, not play him out to be a misunderstood hero in that game, it would be a lot more easier to accept. But no, he had to make him a misunderstood hero.
      Either way, Solid Snake was still more of a demon than Big Boss was, something even Kojima admitted.

      • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

        It doesn’t conflict with it, you should probably rewatch the ending.

        • Eric Otness

          I watched the ending, and remember it, and that still doesn’t cut it. If Kojima wanted him to become a demon, he should have given Big Boss the Dr. Weil treatment (and if you played the Mega Man Zero series, you’d know exactly what I mean by that), right down to the very end.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            If you watched the ending, how can you suggest he is presented as a ‘misunderstood hero’ there, when he isn’t?

          • Eric Otness

            Because overall all the characters in the game, even Big Mama who was officially against Liquid Ocelot, intended to revive him, stop the Patriots, and basically subject the world to Outer Heaven, and even Solid Snake was implied to have agreed to some extent with the goal by Act 3, and Kojima made sure to make us actually think Outer Heaven was a good thing, certainly better than the Patriots’ rule. That’s what I’m referring to.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            How did you arrive at that conclusion? Here are some quotes: “Beneath the surface, a new Cold War is brewing between Liquid and The Patriots.” Snake: “And no matter who wins, the world has no future.” Liquid was the one trying to reinstate Outer Heaven. This is just one example. And here is a quote by EVA: “I cannot imagine that’s what The Boss would have wanted. They both misinterpreted her will.” So how do both EVA and Snake want to subject the world to Outer Heaven?

          • Eric Otness

            Let’s see, EVA tried to revive Big Boss and fulfill Outer Heaven despite that, when, had she actually believed her own words, she should have destroyed Big Boss’s body in a particularly gruesome fashion and be a third faction going against both the Patriots and Big Boss/Liquid Ocelot (and the ending made explicitly clear she was in fact allied with Liquid Ocelot all along, and even before that, she still allied with Big Boss by arranging for Anderson and Clark’s deaths). That shows how at the very least EVA did support Outer Heaven, and was even implied to have put on a show for Snake so to speak. And then there’s the aftermath of Sunny’s FOXALIVE (which, BTW, going by what Drebin stated, still ensured Outer Heaven or a neo-Patriots formed).

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            EVA loved Big Boss, but where does it say she wanted to recreate Outer Heaven? Both The Patriots and Outer Heaven were a misinterpretation of The Boss’s will, which she literally says. This indicates that she doesn’t approve of it.

            Regarding FOXALIVE, they did the best they could. The System was entrenched in every part of society, and Sunny managed to make sure she ‘preserved modern civilization’. It may not have been ideal, but it was the best they could do. Drebin also says that the ‘war economy under The Patriots control is gone for good’. And he says it ‘ain’t gonna be sunshine and rainbows’, but would that be realistic? Otacon ask himself if they did the right thing, weighing against each other the things they lost and the things they saved. All in all, given the circumstances they really tried to do the right thing.

          • Eric Otness

            She came up with events of the entire plan in MGS4 alongside Liquid Ocelot and Naomi, and those two most certainly intended for Outer Heaven to be unleashed, especially Liquid Ocelot. Big Boss made that explicitly clear in his monologue to Solid Snake. “For me, for them, for Naomi, nothing was more important. And it was for that that they put their grand scheme into motion. EVA stole my body from them, and reconstructed it by replacing the missing parts with pieces from Liquid and Solidus. And Ocelot… in order to fool the system, used nanomachines and psychotherapy to transplant Liquid’s personality onto his own.”
            And BTW, that little scheme of theirs basically ensured that the UN became the closest thing to an actual new world government group that the Patriots and Philosophers previously were, something Drebin even implied in his statements. Oh, and he also implied that the world would probably devolve into a global warzone regardless, even without PMCs and the war economy.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            So what should they have done then? Just allowing Liquid to continue, and leaving the war economy as it was? That scheme of Ocelot, Naomi and EVA, by the way, had the goal of ending The Patriots, and waking Big Boss from his cryo-sleep. It doesn’t say anything about restarting Outer Heaven.

          • Eric Otness

            It did have the goal of starting Outer Heaven, though, at least for Liquid Ocelot, and considering Naomi didn’t say ANYTHING at all that would suggest she was against Liquid’s entire goal, she most likely was in support of it.
            And honestly, had it been me, I’d just blow up the entire planet, since I realize there is no good end to what’s going to happen, so might as well just end it.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            That’s a false dilemma.

          • Eric Otness

            It’s not. If Kojima wanted to make clear she didn’t support Outer Heaven, they would have made it clear, even if it meant treating us like idiots. And for the record, that bit about “freed foxes” doesn’t count. Even Liquid Ocelot talked about freedom when talking about Outer Heaven, and the French Revolution promoted liberty yet it resulted in untold bloodshed and destruction. We need something a lot more clear and blatant about whether she supported Outer Heaven or not.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            If she wanted to recreate Outer Heaven, she should have helped Liquid. But Otacon clearly said: ‘She was determined to stop Liquid’.

            Also, you’re saying FOXALIVE was bad because it didn’t end war overnight, but blowing up the entire planet, killing billions of innocents in the process, would’ve been a better course of action?

          • Eric Otness

            “If she wanted to recreate Outer Heaven, she should have helped Liquid. But Otacon clearly said: ‘She was determined to stop Liquid’.”

            That was before FOXALIVE was actually uploaded, and it was made very clear that FOXALIVE was actually a key part of Liquid Ocelot’s plan in Liquid’s speech before fighting Solid Snake (“Stop you? Now why would I do that? This is exactly what I wanted to happen.”). Ocelot and Vamp even implied that letting Naomi escape was part of the plan, which clearly dealt with FOXALIVE. And besides, Sunny’s literally the only reason why the Outer Heaven bit didn’t come about as Liquid predicted, and even then its implied in Otacon’s monologue that she did this in secret, and Drebin even implied it was all for naught anyways.

            “Also, you’re saying FOXALIVE was bad because it didn’t end war overnight, but blowing up the entire planet, killing billions of innocents in the process, would’ve been a better course of action?”
            I would not support exterminating the planet, but the problem is that what FOXALIVE did was far worse than just failing to end war overnight, it’s that it made war even worse by unrestraining it (Drebin made that bit clear, claiming he and the DREBINS were going to have an implied business boom thanks to the Patriots’ demise), and/or subjecting the world to a new world order (or at least the closest thing to one) with the UN (“Then again, the UN was basically a relic of the old era, and when you think about its history, it ain’t that different from the Patriots. [...] Crush, mix, burn, repeat!”), with the exact same results. There is no good end to it, nothing good is going to come out of the results of FOXALIVE. Not ending war overnight is one thing, and I could accept that as long as there was a discernible benefit, such as it mitigating war’s effects (ie, it being scaled down) or there isn’t any chances of a new world order coming about, either in name or all but name (in other words, the UN would not act as the new government, period).

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            It’s also made clear that the war economy did not have beneficial effects aside from economic gain. Sure, it was sold as a way to make a ‘cleaner, safer battlefield’, but the problem was that war now was required for the economy to function. Meaning, war itself had become the justification, so wars were constantly started and kept alive by the system. In the economic system of MGS4, was was a necessity. This was what needed to chance. ‘But so long as there are people, there will always be war.’ Snake said in MGS1, which is true.

            Naomi’s goal was to get rid of this system, a system that was going to be expanded worldwide. That was her goal.

          • Eric Otness

            “It’s also made clear that the war economy did not have beneficial effects aside from economic gain. Sure, it was sold as a way to make a ‘cleaner, safer battlefield’, but the problem was that war now was required for the economy to function. Meaning, war itself had become the justification, so wars were constantly started and kept alive by the system. In the economic system of MGS4, was was a necessity. This was what needed to chance. ‘But so long as there are people, there will always be war.’ Snake said in MGS1, which is true.”

            Yeah, and thanks to FOXALIVE, there still is technically a war economy for some people to profit from as well (otherwise, the DREBINS, an arms dealing company, would not have been implied to actually get lucrative as a result of the Patriots’ demise and the fall of the War Economy. If the world is too broke to even keep fighting, and even America wouldn’t be doing too well, there’s literally no customer base to even get any work done, much less do a lucrative business with weapons dealing.), so it didn’t even do a thing at all. And by “mitigating war,” I didn’t mean an economy for it, I meant a significant lessening of it without outright ending it. Instead, it increased war even more.

            And if you listened to Drebin’s speech, he strongly implied that the UN would just continue what the Patriots and the Philosophers did before them, meaning it still wouldn’t really change a thing. The world is still screwed, without even the hope of something actually becoming better. Heck, the aspect of choice mentioned here was closer to the Sartrean Existential view of choice (which incidentially was actually mentioned in Peace Walker), something that ultimately means nothing in the end. It’s exactly the same thing as the ending to the Matrix Revolutions, where Neo’s sole motive for fighting Smith is simply because “he chose to,” which basically meant nothing in the end.

            “Naomi’s goal was to get rid of this system, a system that was going to be expanded worldwide. That was her goal.”
            Yeah, and it was also the goal of Liquid Ocelot as well. He made that very clear as well. The problem is there was absolutely nothing that indicated she was against Liquid Ocelot’s goal (especially when FOXALIVE turned out to actually be Liquid Ocelot’s plan all along).

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            Except Otacon literally says: “She was determined to stop Liquid.” She feels responsible for The System, because it’s based on her invention.

            Look, you can say FOXALIVE didn’t really change anything, but first of all, we don’t know that, because we haven’t seen a game that takes place after MGS4 (Rising isn’t canon). Second, it was the best they could do. It wasn’t a perfect solution, it wouldn’t end war overnight, but at least it freed the world from both Liquid and The Patriot’s reign. The characters in MGS4 wanted to atone for their sins, to remove the things from the world they were responsible for. Things such as Liquid and The Patriots system, but not every single war fought in the world. It’s up to the world to do the right thing with their new freedom.

          • Eric Otness

            “Except Otacon literally says: “She was determined to stop Liquid.” She feels responsible for The System, because it’s based on her invention.”

            That was from the briefing in Act 5, and considering what was revealed to have happened as soon as FOXALIVE was uploaded (wiping out more than just GW, with Naomi even admitting she deceived Otacon and apologizing for it), that wouldn’t be applicable, especially when Liquid Ocelot explicitly stated that FOXALIVE was indeed his plan.

            “Look, you can say FOXALIVE didn’t really change anything, but first of all, we don’t know that, because we haven’t seen a game that takes place after MGS4 (Rising isn’t canon). Second, it was the best they could do. It wasn’t a perfect solution, it wouldn’t end war overnight, but at least it freed the world from both Liquid and The Patriot’s reign. The characters in MGS4 wanted to atone for their sins, to remove the things from the world they were responsible for. Things such as Liquid and The Patriots system, but not every single war fought in the world. It’s up to the world to do the right thing with their new freedom.”
            1. Rising is canon as Kojima Productions stated that it is canon in addition to being a spinoff. And even if it wasn’t, Drebin’s speech made very clear that things weren’t even going to start getting better for anyone.
            2. That doesn’t mean it was a good result. Don’t forget, the Philosophers were gotten rid of in a similar manner, which was technically a good thing, yet look what happened. And besides, I didn’t say or mean that they should have ended war overnight. I know that won’t happen as long as we exist. However, what they did was worse than not ending war overnight: Based on the fact that Drebin informed Otacon that, thanks to FOXALIVE and the Patriots deaths, he and the other Drebins will form their own arms dealing company, the DREBINS, with an implied lucrative opportunity thanks to these events, that basically implies that, war economy or not, war actually grew worse and more common. How can arms dealers function, much less profit extensively, in a world that technically is too broke to even wage war as Drebin later stated? Now, if they lessened war, made it low key and uncommon (different from ending war outright, as it’s just given less focus and also made low scale), that’s a benefit, but increasing war is worse.
            And again, Drebin implied that the UN would continue the Patriots and the Philosophers’ aims with the implication that this was a bad thing. I even gave you the quote in question. If there was an actual perceivable benefit, BEYOND Liquid or the Patriots not ruling the world (which, BTW, Liquid wouldn’t rule the world even IF Sunny didn’t modify FOXALIVE secretly to keep the stem intact since he aimed for absolute anarchy, which effectively meant he won’t allow himself to rule), I wouldn’t have a major problem with it.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            Liquid says a lot of things, he also says he hoped it would end the way it did, but earlier he said he wanted to become a Patriot himself. Who knows what he would have done when things had gone differently. It’s never a good idea to have a maniac as Liquid in control, and that’s why they took control away from him by disabling the AIs.

            Their goal wasn’t to end all wars, but to end war as a routine. A global economy that depends on war is something very dangerous. There has to be economic growth, so there also has to be growth in war. In other words, it probably would have grown worse and worse if Snake and his team hadn’t stepped in. It’s safe to say the situation was very bad, bad enough for Campbell to call in Snake outside of the UN control, because, as he said, ‘I for one can’t just sit back and let it happen.’

            Also, Rising is presented as sort of a ‘what if’ story, Kojima clearly doesn’t really consider it canon, because he hasn’t written it.

            Here are Naomi’s last words about her goals: “Snake… Hear me. Our country is an innocent child once more. A new dawn is rising. Now she can build a new destiny for herself. Snake… The time has come.” It seems clear from this that she didn’t want to create a new Outer Heaven, but to give the world a clean slate to start from.

          • Eric Otness

            “Liquid says a lot of things, he also says he hoped it would end the way it did, but earlier he said he wanted to become a Patriot himself. Who knows what he would have done when things had gone differently. It’s never a good idea to have a maniac as Liquid in control, and that’s why they took control away from him by disabling the AIs.”

            Yes, except his being behind FOXALIVE was also foreshadowed earlier in the ending of Act 2, where he and Vamp debriefed on the failed South America test (“Boss, she [Naomi] got away. Are you sure about this?” // “It’s all part of the plan.”), so we have at least two instances where Liquid did in fact intend for FOXALIVE to be used. Besides, had control been what he wanted, don’t you think he would have been enraged by Snake destroying said chances at control instead of pretty much thanking him for accomplishing his goals after said goals seemed to be destroyed?

            “Their goal wasn’t to end all wars, but to end war as a routine. A global economy that depends on war is something very dangerous. There has to be economic growth, so there also has to be growth in war. In other words, it probably would have grown worse and worse if Snake and his team hadn’t stepped in. It’s safe to say the situation was very bad, bad enough for Campbell to call in Snake outside of the UN control, because, as he said, ‘I for one can’t just sit back and let it happen.”

            And I didn’t say “end all wars” I said lessening them. That would indicate that wars, although subsided, are still in existence. What I specifically object to is an increase of wars. I know that wars can’t be brought to an absolute end as long as we still exist in our sinful state, but that doesn’t mean we INCREASE war. Decrease it I can handle, but increasing it and worsening it is worse, even you have to agree with that. And believe me, when Drebin started thanking Otacon for destroying the Patriots because it meant a new business opportunity for the DREBINS, that only means that war had in fact increased and gotten worse, as their business was specifically catered to gun laundering and arms dealing. And considering we spent most of our time getting rid of the Patriots, why on earth would we all of a sudden accept the UN becoming basically the exact same kind of entity that the Patriots, and the Philosophers before them, basically were decried for, especially given what Drebin implied in his drunken rant?

            “Also, Rising is presented as sort of a ‘what if’ story, Kojima clearly doesn’t really consider it canon, because he hasn’t written it.”

            Kojima Productions did consider it canon, however, and Kojima said absolutely nothing to discredit that (and before you get into timeline issues, let me remind you that Kojima once dropped the MSX2 games from the timeline, yet they obviously are still canon).

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            If you are so against an increase of war, you would have agreed that Snake and his team did the right thing. As pointed out earlier, since the war economy needs economic growth, that system would need an increase in wars around the world. However, no one said that there would be more wars after FOXALIVE.

            In the end, it doesn’t really matter to the story wether you think FOXALIVE was a good thing to do or not. The characters in the game felt like it was the right thing to do, and that’s why they did it. Even if they had to pay a price for it.

            In this interview Kojima says Rising is a ‘parallel game’ and Platinum Games’ take on the story:

          • SolidKenny87

            And he also said that, inside him, he separates “A Hideo Kojima Game” from games that aren’t “A Hideo Kojima Game.”

            So even if Rising and MPO are “officially canon”, it’s clear that those games don’t really reflect Kojima’s view of the Saga. At most, they should be treated as Expanded Universe works. The real story is in the games directed by Hideo Kojima.

            inb4Weedle tries to explain to me why I’m wrong for going by the exact words that series creator Hideo Kojima himself use, with a source for my quote

          • SolidKenny87

            Hideo Kojima: For fans who really love the heroic Snakes, I must make them accept the Snakes fallen into the demon in TPP.

            Eric Otness: LOL NO. I know more about these characters than you do!

            This is the guy who spends all day editing the Metal Gear Wiki… Good god…

          • Eric Otness

            “If you are so against an increase of war, you would have agreed that Snake and his team did the right thing. As pointed out earlier, since the war economy needs economic growth, that system would need an increase in wars around the world. However, no one said that there would be more wars after FOXALIVE.”

            And they would have stopped an increase in war (more wars = increase)… IF Drebin didn’t state that he was going to take advantage of the Patriots’ demise and create a new gun laundering business in the ending and thank Otacon for it. I’ll even give you the specific quote proving it, and this time, try to actually read it: “Otacon : So does that mean you’re out of a job now?

            Drebin : Are you kiddin’? I got the DREBINS. All the Drebins in the
            world are in on it. From now on, we’re in business for
            ourselves. We are pawns no more.

            Otacon : Easy there.”
            Keep in mind that the Drebins were all gun launderers, so the fact that he’s talking as if he’s going to profit immensely would suggest an increase in war, not a decrease. If there was a decrease in war, he wouldn’t even have a job or at the very least have an extremely hard time finding work, something Otacon even pointed out. That’s why they definitely increased war and not decreased it. Had there been an actual decrease in war, the Drebins most certainly would be out of a job, legally or otherwise. And this immediately preceded Drebin’s rant about how America has to give up on unilateralism and the rest of the world is flat out broke, to such an extent that even PMC regulation laws won’t cut it, and his implication that the UN will take control and continue the Patriots’ actions. Now do you understand what I’m trying to convey?

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            All Drebin said that he’s in business for himself now, he no longer works for The Patriots. Nowhere does he say there is going to be an increase in war, or that he is going to ‘profit immensely’. He actually celebrates his newfound freedom from The Patriots. And again, yes, there are still going to be wars, and therefor, gun launderers. But what they did remove was an oppressive system that operated from the shadows, and that used war as a routine as the main pillar of the global economy.

          • No Place For Hayter

            Nyxus on behalf of the community here (if that is Ok with everyone >.> ) I want to thank you for putting so much effort into MGS and its story, and for actually having huge conversations with people we would normally leave awkwardly in the corner because we did not to try and convince them of anything when they are only here to proudly show off their their own personal variation of truth and fact, and are not here to further their knowledge but are simply here to try and show us how superior they are and that their opinion is what you should believe.

            P.S. I personally hate people that argue that games like Metal Gear RISING are canon to the Metal Gear SOLID series, these kinds of people grab ideas and facts from any possible source they can get their hands on even the ones that should not be used and the ones that are false and ignore half of the other facts and ideas because they simply do not fit with their ideas and opinions, these are the kind of people that use the wiki as evidence and argue the “facts” about fan made garbage and obviously fake sources and trailers because it fits with what they want.

          • SolidKenny87

            You have my approval to speak on my behalf. :D I don’t know how Nyxus was able to pull it off without pulling his hair out (I know I do whenever I argue with Weedle/Eric), but I’m happy he did (unless he DID pull his hair out but manages to not show it in his posts, which is still commendable.)

            Though, knowing Weedle, he probably hasn’t learned a thing from this conversation, and will continue to believe his flawed way of thinking, and continue to have this exact same argument with other people, on various other sites, for years to come.

            I’d love to be wrong, though.

            P.S. Well. one of the game’s producers (Yuji Korekado) DID say Rising was canon, but as the video Nyxus posted shows, Kojima doesn’t really agree with that (thank god.)
            However, he didn’t say that until a week after the game was released, and long after the idea that Rising is canon has been cemented into the minds of many fans. Not many people have seen that video Nyxus posted, compared to the interview with Korekado.(23,000 vs a mere 5,000.)
            So to most fans, Rising is simply what happens after MGS4… And they seem completely OK with that… Which is horrifying.

          • No Place For Hayter

            Yeah, Kojima likes to keep canonicity a touchy subject, he likes to have a personal idea of what he considers canon and an more encompassing “official” canon, I personally agree with Kojima’s personal opinion of the MGS canon.

          • Eric Otness

            Except that “freedom’s” going to be hollow due to the whole world save for possibly America basically being so broke and in debt that, as Drebin pointed out, even PMC regulation laws would not be enough to get them out of the recession. He’d effectively be broke because the results of FOXALIVE made it so that they can’t even afford to pay gun launderers, meaning he’d actually go broke from his “freedom.” That would make Drebin either extremely short sighted, or otherwise he is in fact accurate in expecting a huge business boom. And honestly, were I in his position, while I’d be grateful that I’m at least in it for myself, I’d also realize at the same time that doing gun laundering won’t be worth it because, hey, most of the world’s too broke and in insane debts to the war economy to even profit from it and find some other career. It’s a hollow victory at best. My dad would feel the same way (and he’d know, he worked in businesses).

            Again, you just aren’t getting the logical fallacies and implications in what was shown in the game’s ending, especially with what Drebin stated. What’s the point in celebrating your business’s freedom from the Patriots iron grip when the result, a financially broke world, and enough debts to make even PMC regulatory laws not enough to even amount to half of the debt (and that’s not even an estimate, Drebin made that explicitly clear), means you can’t even go so far as to profit from war, since far too many people are likely too broke to even wage war for a while, and thus means your business is going to quickly go out of business. And then there’s his implication that the UN will probably become the Patriots again, and the cycle will continue, meaning he’ll be back where he started. They fought to get rid of the Patriots, yet they’re simply going to let the UN basically act as their successors? Are you blind to how pointless the entire endeavor was? The ending for MGS4 was simply a bad ending, with little chance of actually making a difference. Letting future generations decide their course? That Sartrean Existentialist choice thing? It’s not a good ending at all, just accept it, and in fact was one of the reasons why The Matrix Revolutions’ ending wasn’t very popular with various people. Regardless of whether Drebin either ends up broke from continuing a poor business venture (Let’s put it this way, it’s like making Horse drawn carriages for a living while in the 21st century. Sure, there’s nothing specifically forbidding it, but it’s a poor business venture that isn’t likely to actually make much of a difference to wealth creation for yourself. This is the same thing.), or he ends up profiting immensely from it, it’s still a very bad ending overall, for him, and for everyone else.

      • SolidKenny87

        “Either way, Solid Snake was still more of a demon than Big Boss was, something even Kojima admitted.”

        https://twitter.com/SolidKenny87/status/449675616627859456

        I asked for a translation of what Kojima said in a recent interview with 4Gamer. Click the date and time for @JUNKERHQnet’s replies.

        “Placed in the same situations, Solid would have perhaps chosen to do what’s right regardless, but not BB.”

        This song is about you;

        • SolidKenny87

          And for the record, Marc Laidlaw (the guy who runs the @JunkerHQnet profile) worked on the localization for Ground Zeroes, so he knows what he’s talking about.

          I know I shouldn’t have bothered replying to you, Eric, but what you said about Solid Snake was the last straw, and thankfully, was easily refutable.
          Please don’t argue with what Hideo Kojima said. He’s the creator of the series and knows much more about the inner workings of the series than you do, or any of us for that matter.

          • Eric Otness

            The exact same can be said of you. And BTW, I actually WAS using Kojima’s own words with Solid Snake when I mentioned that he was more of a demon than Big Boss was. Or perhaps I should remind you about the MGS3 Director’s Commentary and Kojima’s own words in there:

            http://muni_shinobu.webs.com/mgs3/commentary1.html

            “It is kind of a cheap setting, the clone thing. To make the main character Naked
            Snake, who Solid is cloned from.
            The human-made clones, Solid Snake and
            Liquid Snake. It’s like the story of Frankenstein, of man-made man (人造人間), not a
            living creature that happened in the world naturally. A man-made monster, and
            that’s Solid Snake. On a character perspective, Naked Snake is more full of
            human feel (人間味) to him. At the time of the Snake Eater mission, he’s still too
            pure, like The Boss said, still filled with the sense of justice. We made his
            movements and actions, his dialogues and the voice portrayal, more human like,
            as compared to Solid Snake. He’s more sensitive to feelings and pain. Solid
            Snake is not like that. He is a created monster. Feelings are against his
            character and personality. He just follows orders. There is this kind of
            difference in character between the two of them.

            This was something Kojima himself explicitly stated, and in his commentary, not to mention. So unless you want to decry Kojima as a flat out liar, you need to dismiss any notion that Snake was ever a good guy. And BTW, “working for a better future” is not the definite mark of a good guy. The Bolshieviks and the Jacobins made the same claims. Heck, even Solidus and Liquid made the same claims. Guess what, they were bad guys. And Snake was explicitly referred to as a terrorist and even admitted it to Raiden’s face. Sorry, but he is not a good guy, period, and even Kojima referred to him as a monster.

      • The Solid Grape

        How exactly was Solid Snake MORE of a demon than the “villainous” Big Boss?!

        • The Solid Grape

          Wait scratch that. I just remembered that Big Boss was doing it only as a means to an end. Not that he desired to set the world on fire. Even in Sins of The Father(TPP song) it says “The SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS never die.
          I cant wash this blood off my hands.
          Let the world fear us all.
          Just a means to an end”
          This shows that he’s only being the way he is for a reason which is unfortunately revenge. But i think i could understand if you thought Solid Snake was more “evil” in the beginning because he enjoys the killing and revels in it while Big Boss only did so for the sake of battle. But in the end its interpretation and is subjective to all of us.

          • SolidKenny87

            In MGS4, if you kill enough people, Snake hears an audio flashback of Liquid’s “you enjoy all the killing! That’s why!” He then pukes and looses a ton of Psyche. I don’t think he enjoys it as much as people insist…

            Besides, by MGS2, he’s found a cause for his fighting, and while he does acknowledge that “There’s no right part in murder. Not ever”, he’s still fighting for a future.

            Also, read my two replies to Eric below.

  • Eric Otness

    Honestly Kojima, you had the opportunity to avoid having to make them believe this when you had the decision to refuse to make MGS4 or at least make sure Big Boss was completely unsympathetic in MGS4. However, you screwed up, you effectively made Big Boss into a good guy instead of a Complete Monster, so this is all on you. You have no one to blame but yourself for this.
    And you also screwed up when you mentioned wanting to revisit a MGS2-style plot twist a while back ago.

    • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

      That was many years later. It’s not strange for a person to reflect on his life and see the mistakes he’s made when he is that close to death. The same thing happened to other characters in the series, such as Sniper Wolf and Psycho Mantis. It changes your perspective on life. Big Boss looked back at what his choices had unleashed on the world, and realizes he made a lot of mistakes. Big Boss has been through a lot in his life, and he was blinded by hate and a twisted ideology, and at the end of his life he realizes these things.

      Remember also this, after his falling out with Zero, he has interacted solely with him through other characters that want to do him harm (Paz for example). But in MGS4, he is face to face with Zero again, and realizes it is just a pitiful old man now, not some kind of evil, omnipotent god. This also changes his perspective.

      The point is, his behavior in MGS4 doesn’t contradict his other actions, in fact he acknowledges them and regrets them.

      • Eric Otness

        Yeah, and many of the crimes Oswell E. Spencer from did was many years prior to RE5, and yet he pretty clearly had no regret for what he did right down to when he got his just desserts and was murdered by his heir to his ideology, Albert Wesker (who BTW died a monster in the ending of the same game as well). The Elf Wars were a literal century before the events of the Mega Man Zero series, and heck, Dr. Weil was even forced into a state of implied painful immortality to make him realize that he was at fault for what he did. Guess what? He never regretted his actions, truly enjoyed the carnage, and was a monster to the very end. Trust me, age means nothing, and he would have settled the whole demon thing a long time ago.
        And besides, considering he tried to save children and even his enemies as early back as MG2, the latter especially when he literally had every reason not to save them, instead of nearly pulling a Wesker on them regarding abandoning them or outright betraying them, he should have corrected that mistake back in MG2.

        • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

          Not talking about age here, but about a change in perspective, which is very possible in the course of one’s life, especially when death is near. How perspective affects a person is an important theme in the series to begin with. How Resident Evil and Mega Man handle this isn’t relevant (and the story isn’t really comparable to begin with, these games have a much more cartoony story with typical heros and villains). But what about the Sniper Wolf example? Age isn’t a factor there. First, she seems like an evil person who just wants to kill Snake, but right before she dies she reflects back on her life and sees the mistakes she has made, and you sympathize with her. This is the same thing that happened to Big Boss.

          • Eric Otness

            Committing genocide and basically viewing yourself as a god (or the devil, in the case of Dr. Weil) was not “cartoony” at all. Heck, the Nazis, heck, even the Soviets’ actions were not “cartoony” at all, and in fact are still reflected with a lot of horror on everyone’s part.
            And besides which, the Patriots were pretty blatantly shown to be very evil, and certainly not even cartoonish as you put it despite having zero redeemable traits in MGS2 (and that was from this series). Heck, I doubt most people would call Agent Smith “cartoonish” at all, yet he was pretty blatantly evil, a monster to the very end. And the so-called “hero” Neo wasn’t much better, either.
            And Kefka had a similar end, yet he was still depicted as a monster who enjoyed causing destruction, even in Dissidia, which is pretty much the one game that actually treated him even slightly sympathetically.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            The Patriots in MGS2 had little to do with the people who started it. It was already taken over by the AIs at that point. And these other examples aren’t really relevant to the discussion, this is about the characters in MGS.

          • Eric Otness

            They are relevant because they directly relate to characters who died monsters even years afterwards and how Kojima screwed up with the whole “making Big Boss a demon” bit.
            And regardless, the point still stands that the Patriots were shown to be exceptionally evil by the time of MGS2, certainly irredeemable, and weren’t done in a cartoonish fashion. And AIs or not, they were sufficiently advanced enough to plan ahead with the S3 plan and even alter the plans to some degree to ensure a better result. Probably the only thing that might make them slightly sympathetic was in Rising, where Raiden wondered whether they even knew what they were doing, yet even then it was still made clear they were exceptionally evil, and even implied that they lied to Raiden about their motives.
            Another good example, one actually from the series BTW, is Colonel Volgin. Died without any regrets (and it was implied he may have deliberately killed himself anyways), and same with Hot Coldman, who most certainly died without any regrets at all from being shot by Zadornov. Zadornov as well. Oh, and Fatman died without any regrets to his actions, died a monster at the very end. Even Liquid died without any regrets, and neither did Ocelot. If they wanted to make Big Boss a demon, they should have done so a long time ago by making him a black and white villain. It doesn’t mean one-dimensional, BTW. Palpatine, for example, was certainly a black and white villain, yet he was three dimensional despite that.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            Just because other characters died without regret, doesn’t mean Big Boss does. The example was merely meant to illustrate that a character’s perspective can change right before death, and this doesn’t mean the character is inconsistent. There are more examples, like Peter Stillman in MGS2, who admits to having lied about his leg, and does this only right before he dies.

            About The Patriots in MGS2, again, they were AIs. They had taken over, and were out of Zero’s control. As Big Boss explains in MGS4: “By then, the System was no longer being steered by Zero’s will — or anyone else’s. [...] In this new world, there were no ideologies, no principles, no ideals [...] It was a colossal error in judgment – one Zero couldn’t possibly have foreseen.” It was never the intention of the founders of The Patriots for something like this to happen. The Patriots AI represent a system that has nothing to do with morality, that exists outside of the human world.

          • Eric Otness

            Yeah, I get that. However, that most certainly was the intention of Hot Coldman, especially considering he echoed similar sentiments with his AI project, even explicitly referring to The Boss’s ideals as “bankrupt” and buried.
            And actually, while it is consistent with a fallen hero, it is completely inconsistent with a demon, as the description of a demon is someone who is so evil they absolutely cannot be redeemed at all, nor have any remorse for their actions.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            Big Boss being a ‘demon’ is just an analogy, obviously. It doesn’t mean he is one in a dictionary sense.

          • Eric Otness

            I am talking about the analogy sense, actually. Were I using the dictionary sense, technically, he wouldn’t be a homosapien, but an evil spirit and a fallen angel, since that’s what a demon literally means.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            Okay, but what’s your point? You were suggesting he can’t be redeemed because they called him a demon. That sounds like you’re taking the word a little too literally. It’s just a word used to describe Big Boss’s character development in this game.

          • SolidKenny87

            Nyxus, give it up. Eric Otness (aka Weedle_McHairybug, aka Pokeria1) is the worst person to have an argument with ever. I’ve seen him debate with others. I’ve debated with him myself. Trying to reason with him will only piss you off, and twist your psyche until you start to become a demon.

            The worst part is, he spends all day on the Metal Gear Wiki. The fans mindlessly use the Metal Gear Wiki as if it’s a perfect source of information. Weedle is warping the perception of fans everywhere by spreading his wrong all over the MG Wiki. Stephen Colbert’s Wikiality perfectly applies to this situation.

            This is who Eric Otness is, IRL; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0OowSxgEcE

            His rant it split into three parts. It’s funny, but also really, really sad, when you think about it…

            Just stop arguing with him. Stop replying to his posts. Everyone should do the same. If we did, he would (hopefully) stop posting and he would go away.

          • Eric Otness

            First of all, the information I placed onto the Metal Gear Wiki is taken directly from either the game or official sources, so its not false at all. I even made sure to quote directly from those sources just in case people doubted it. Sure I may have made some mistakes, but so has everyone else.
            Second of all, I explained in full detail how things go, and I don’t resort to insults, either, since that’s a sign of a bad debater. If you have a problem with that, then that’s your problem. Again, I can admit I make some mistakes, but I make sure I rectify them as soon as I discover I’ve made mistakes.
            Third of all, I made those series of videos because back then, there pretty much wasn’t any other options to go. I also gave up on feminism since then largely because of a horrible professor who spread lies to promote it such as women not getting an education at all, not to mention being abused by her and her ilk. And most of my high school did actually believe in that, even saying that I had a good cause when I was doing petition work to bring her back.
            Lastly, I’m not a troll, and in fact I hate trolls. I always state exactly what I believe, with full honesty and seriousness, and make sure I don’t get a rise out of people.

          • crimsonfox

            Bahahaha Nyxus you’re cracking me up. I applaud you for even responding to this dude as much as you did. He’s obviously not graspng the concept of the whole story.

          • SolidKenny87

            Agreed. Nyxus is a true Patriot.

          • Dr. Miles Manners

            Give it up Nyxus! This guy is as stubborn as they come. Once he was so hang up with the real Cecile Caminades that he harassed her in real life because he “was worried for her soul due to all the degenerated lifestyle of her character”. He doesn’t understand how women behave and it’s just downright a creep. No wonder he never had a girlfriend by this point.

          • SolidKenny87

            Wait, what?! hahaha! When did this happen?

          • Dr. Miles Manners

            Happened on Gamefaqs. He’s well known there for his extremely awkward behavior with women, and extreme religious views. Not to mention, the aforementioned story.

          • SolidKenny87

            Oh my god, I gotta see this. Where can I find that thread (about the Cecile Incident)?

          • Dr. Miles Manners

            Try Gamefaqs, since it happened there. But it was brought about many times after it, so it’s possible you find something. I just remember it was on “The Phantom Pain” PS3 Board, and there was another thread about Paz’ Tapes where he said that Paz wasn’t interested on Big Boss at all since she said so on her tapes (those being OBVIOUS “Womanese” traits of indeed liking the man/”Tsundere”) and people started realizing why he was this awkward when it comes to women or social relationships as a whole.

          • SolidKenny87

            I tried Google but I only found threads that referenced the incident. Which month/year did this happen?

          • Dr. Miles Manners

            It was last year, I think around May or something. I remember it because I was doing a Platinum run for Peace Walker and Phantom Pain stuff was also the hot topic of those days.

          • SolidKenny87

            Did I find it?

            http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/681794-metal-gear-solid-v-the-phantom-pain/66269767

            Looks like I did. :D Oh boy, 10 pages. This is going to give me a headache…

            Edit: The funny thing is, he (at one point) claimed to be a Feminist.

            Going by this thread, there’s no fucking way that’s true. There is no way Eric Otness was ever a real feminist, in any sense of the word (whether it’s the Anita Sarkeesian variety or the non-bullshit variety.)

            Edit 2: Just finished reading it. Oh my god, that was awful.

            The most atrocious thing is, HE SAYS HE’S NOT EVEN A FUCKING METAL GEAR FAN. He has NO emotional investment in any of the characters or story elements, AND YET HE SPENDS ALL DAY ON THE METAL GEAR WIKI.
            He says he does it because he “has to.” Why? Why DOES he have to? No one is forced to work on a Wikia! All he is doing is bugging the shit out of fans who actually CARE about these games, and try to understand Kojima’s vision for the story and characters.

            Goddamn it. The best Metal Gear fan ever (Project Itoh, author of the MGS4 novelization) died in 2009. I wish he was still around (and a member of GameFaqs) so he could bitch slap eric_otness even harder than Nyxus did here.

          • Dr. Miles Manners

            Yeah, I don’t buy it. It’s obvious he’s a fan. He just said that because he was cornered. Pussy move, I guess, but that’s as much pussy as this guy gets anyway!

          • Eric Otness

            No, I am not a fan at all. And I mean it in full sincerity, not simply because I was cornered. Even if they were in full agreement with me, I still would have said exactly that, that I’m not a fan. Just because people edit wikis doesn’t mean they are fans. Probably the only things I can definitely say I’m fans of are Star Fox, Disney films, Pokémon, Mario, and Metroid. Oh, and Sonic as well. That’s it. Heck, I know at least one other person who made clear that even though he edits the wiki for Metal Gear, he in fact hates the franchise. Even my first game in the series, Portable Ops, was only so I could gain some information that other sources don’t give. Can you honestly claim that you don’t edit wikis you aren’t fans of?

          • Eric Otness

            Back then, I was more of a Suffragette feminist (ie, Susan B. Anthony). I never believed in abortion and I felt pornography was wrong. In case you’ve forgotten, the suffragette feminists actually would have been horrified by what the current crop of feminism is pushing. And either way, I gave up on feminism after they bashed us males and uttered lies such as women not being educated at all until the 1960s (which, BTW, the fact that one of the few professions women could get in the preceding decade and before was a “schoolteacher”, which naturally implies being well read and well versed in a subject would in fact strongly imply they were indeed educated and literate).

            As far as why I feel as though I have to, it’s for the exact same reasons why kids who hate school have to go there anyways. There’s information to be given, so it has to be supplied. Do I like it? No, but guess what, I have to, just like how all those kids who hate school still have to go there. Very rarely do you find a Jason Fox character who actually enjoys school.

            And since you brought up my wanting to know from Cecile whether what that character said was true, that character effectively implied with that “I’m no different than any other Parisian Women” comment that all the women in France since May 1968 were like her, and considering I’m neither French nor have I ever set foot into the country for even a temporary time to even know directly, the only chance I have to finding out whether this was in fact true or accurate is by asking someone who actually is French and female. The only reason why I know why the Hippie movement and/or the student protests weren’t even as widespread as media and education seem to claim here in America is because A. PIG made clear that was a minority, and B., and probably the most important point, my own parents, my paternal side of the family, heck, my own doctor never even participated in those things at all despite being Boomers (probably the closest any of them actually came to being that was my doctor avoiding the draft. That’s it. No toking, no free love, none of it.). I don’t have the same thing with France, and considering Catholicism, heck, Christianity in general, made clear that free love is a sin, yes, I have every right to be concerned for her soul. Unlike you guys, I’m more the type who tries to verify whether such a claim is true or not with raw numerical data.

          • Dr. Miles Manners

            Going about it like religion was a fact. As long as you don’t harm anybody you’re free to do as much as you can. Your beliefs=/=facts.

            Also No! If you’re not a fan of some franchise, there’s no point in editing a free source of information like the wiki pages. They don’t pay you to do it, so you doing so it’s pretty redundant if you don’t care.

          • Eric Otness

            Actually, no, Religious beliefs = facts. Heck, it was Christianity, contrary to what you’ve been taught, that was most instrumental in Science existing. Heck, we Christians INVENTED IT, or at least perfected it. And we were pretty good astronomers as well. There’s a practical reason why monastaries had towers, and its to observe the stars.
            And actually, your example would work if it were a job. It’s not. Think of it like school, as a student at school more specifically. You go there, don’t exactly have much options but to do so especially when you have to do so by law, and you don’t actually get paid to do so. Most kids hate school, yet they have to do it anyways, largely because the law forces them to, and if not the law, their parents most certainly do.

          • Dr. Miles Manners

            But this isn’t school. And still doesn’t make sense for someone who doesn’t like the franchise to work on a fansite about it (yes, Wikis are essencially that). Work on the Mario, Pokemon, etc. Wikis instead.

            And no, if religion was fact, there weren’t so many of them and there would not be any agnostic or atheist. So what about Astronomy? If they indeed “invented it” (which is wrong as well) it proves absolutely nothing in terms of the existance of a God or not.

          • Blaqout

            The thing is not all people are the same. Some can go through epiphanies, and others do not. Some people will have regrets, others will not. Simple as that. You can’t view people’s lives and perspective as a simple cookie cutter approach and label everyone either “good or evil”, or “white or black”. In reality everyone is different and just because Vulgin, Coldman, Dr. Weil or any of the other characters you mentioned died a villain does not means that Big Boss has to remain a villain. That is solely on him. If anything, you can feel for Big Boss more because of his regrets, and maybe he wasn’t that evil person after all and actually has a conscience. And what makes you think those characters you mentioned will not switch sides if given the chance? Let’s say if they did not die in their respective timelines, and some event happened to them that caused them to rethink their morals? Highly unlikely but can’t deny that it is impossible. Also on the Kojima screwing up comment… that is your opinion. But the way I viewed it, Kojima expanded on the perspective of Big Boss that we never saw before. The saying there is always two sides to a story. We are given Big Boss’s story, not the one fed to us by Zero. I do not see a problem with that and if anything it showed me more of the character.

          • Venom Snake

            And The Boss!

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            The Boss is a different story, actually. She is one of the few characters who can truly see things from a greater perspective (also due to her seeing Earth from space). She doesn’t think in a perspective of country, or ideology, or person. That makes her special. It is also the reason Snake feels betrayed by her, because in a way, she sacrificied Snake for the greater good, traumatizing him by making him kill her under false pretenses.

          • Eric Otness

            The Boss’s statements are closer to nihilism, which isn’t a greater perspective at all. In fact, the Piggyback Guide for MGS3 even noted the entire franchise was predicated on Nietzschean philosophy, citing one Nietzsche work in particular: The Eternity of the Same.
            Besides, The Boss’s philosophy of “trying our hardest to keep things the same” as MGS4 put it with Big Boss’s new understanding falls hard on its face when you think about it: The civil rights era would not have happened, nor would the Reformation, nor would any new technologies be discovered, heck, life itself would not exist. And that’s not even getting into things like Original Sin or Jesus sacrificing himself on the cross. Literally everything that happens happens because of change. It even conflicted with The Boss’s own private remarks after she threw Naked Snake into the river, literally, in the end of the Virtuous Mission. Heck, she herself broke that philosophy if you remember that her main mission was to retrieve the Philosophers’ Legacy from Russia and potentially screw them over for America (though the USSR does deserve it for its butchering of us Christians), and she willingly undertook several missions that changed history.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            Depends on how you look at it. You can also say that everything happening in our universe is because of repeating cycles, day/night, life/death, winter/summer. Life on earth is a delicate balance that relies on a certain repetition.

            The Boss attempts to prevent to world to spiraling out of control, to become completely decided because of different ideologies. That’s probably what Big Boss meant, though maybe this is up to anyone to interpret for themselves.

          • Eric Otness

            I’m not of the school of having us interpret for ourselves, because in the end there are different interpretations, that leads to relativism, and I’m more of the person who believes in absolute truth.

          • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

            But sometimes there is no ‘absolute truth’, there are just different perspectives. The Boss tried to explain this in MGS3, even saying that there are no true enemies.

          • SolidKenny87

            “And I’m more of the person who believes in absolute truth.”

            “There’s no such thing in the world as absolute reality. Most of what they call real, is actually fiction.” – Solid Snake, acting as Hideo Kojima’s mouth piece

            ^^This is why you are unqualified to be such a huge influence in the Metal Gear Wiki. You do not believe in, or care about, the philosophy that these games espouse. All you care about is collecting and memorizing meaningless “facts” in a fictional universe.

          • Venom Snake

            But to be honest i HATED her at The Beginning of MGS 3, and then when i killed her HITH MY OWN FINGER ON THE CONTROLLER, sorry, memories, i did felt that she didn’t deserve it, after hearing her speech, i actually started to see The World Different, Yes since MGS 3 is The World and my basic life different then if i have never played MGS, but then when Eva said to Snake the Truth, it was just Layer or Layer over Layer, and i said to myself (Don’t cry you are a MAN) but then when EVA said that she was a Real Hear, she was a True Patriot, that was just too much for me and i could take it anymore, so i cried while being Sad, not hysterically Crying, but more like a Sentimental and Regret Cry!

            And while playing MGS, i felt EVERY Emotions that Snake had, i felt that i was there with Snake, like a Spirit Guarding him!

      • thetrooper1989

        I totally agree Nyxus, Big Boss is a human being just like the rest of us. I’m glad Kojima made him believable, he didn’t need to be a caricature and be all evil.

        As for myself I never saw Big Boss as a villain, morally grey but he did what needed to be done, sometimes not caring for the consequences.

    • Cartmangus

      “And you also screwed up when you mentioned wanting to revisit a MGS2-style plot twist a while back ago.”

      When did this happen? Anyone got a source?

      • Eric Otness

        It was a while back, back in the early months of MGSV’s announcement. I think it was between the time The Phantom Pain had been announced as a separate IP by Moby Dick Studios and the release of that odd trailer for Project Omega. I wish I could give you the source, but unfortunately it’s very likely to be gone now thanks to GameFAQs deleting the Phantom Pain thread.

        • Andron

          Damn your life has to be full of happiness………I’m following this page for a long time already, and sorry if my english isn’t correct because im from germany.
          But your texts made me kinda angry/sad at the same time….so i have to write here for the first time.
          Where is the sense of this conversation for you ?
          I still don’t get the people, who just talk and talk and can’t stop, driven from an unknown energy inside which i can’t understand.
          Do you always have to discuss everything to death ?
          Please, let the fans on this website be happy about this great masterpiece from kojima, this is art……take it as it is……and stop complaining about everything…….try for yourself to create such a universe of art……..

          • crimsonfox

            “driven from an unknown energy”
            bahahahaha

          • Andron

            Yeah :D Didnt know how to express that exactly, but it’s like these people are thirsty for talking about every “mistake” (or what just doesn’t fit to their taste of art) and need to discuss every shit, instead of appreciating this piece of art and see the positive things……;)

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  • Datguy8923

    Big Boss fultoning all the poor Afghan sheeps is proof of his evil. >:O

    STOP BIG BOSS 2015.

    • César H. Sandoval

      He’s too far gone now to stop him.

      • Eden’s Cross

        /dead

  • Eden’s Cross

    So does that mean that there will be a disconnect between the gameplay style of the player and the actual narrative itself? Where I will sneak through a base not killing or even being seen by anyone only to see BB killing people in a cutscene.

    • http://www.metalgearinformer.com Nyxus

      Probably, as is always the case in MGS. Otherwise it would be pretty difficult to tell a specific story, such as this one.

  • MrVux007

    Cant believe people are still dividing people in MGS into good or evil……..il say it once and ill say it again ill never see Big Boss as the evil/villain ….all i see is the man willing to do everything to put a stop the greatest enemy of the mankind has been fighting in MGS…….Zero ….if people are going to call him an evil or mad man,i respect their opinions…..but keep in mind that in real world people like him are necessary(ok i might have gone to far with that statement,but it isnt far from the truth)……Kojima might say this will be his downfall….i see it as his uprising …..remember people,everybody moral compass is different….its always the matter of perspective

    • Solid Snakes Revenge

      I agree with you. Especially after talking to him in mgs4.

    • Janeo

      I agree no one os good or evil in the mgs universe but the things big boss does is considered evil by people like solid snake. I think he has gone a little to far to be viewed as necessary if people in real life trained child soldiers or we found out they torture people we would hate them, I guess the reason we don’t hate big boss is because we know him. It’s really cool to have character development like this it’s something you can never get on games, we have followed big bosses life from when he was young and loved his country so much that he was willing to kill someone who was like a mother to him, then we went to an older big boss who had abandoned his country and was trying to leave hos past behind for good now we have a big boss who is just out for revenge and looks like he will do a lot of things we will be surprised by

      • MrVux007

        He did say *The moment i killed The Boss,i was already dead* so yea …but the fact still remains that both Solid Snake and Big Boss are anti-heroes(if we are gonna divide people like that)…but i hate when people put Big Boss into villains and Solid Snake into heroes,when they are both the same

    • SolidKenny87

      Well, I think it’s fair to do so when Kojima, the creator of the series, is doing that.

      In an interview with IGN, he says that, while he does want people to understand and feel what Big Boss is feeling, ultimately, he wants players to step back and say “whoa, what Big Boss is doing is really messed up!”

      Also, no, Big Boss and Solid Snake are not the same. Big Boss tells Snake “I never thought of you as a son, but I’ve always respected you as a soldier, and as a man. Had you been in my place back then, maybe you wouldn’t have made, the same mistakes that I did…” And Kojima expressed a similar attitude in an interview with 4Gamer (scroll down to my reply to Eric, toward the bottom of the comments.) Even Itoh’s novelization of MGS4 (which Kojima praised for “reading between the lines”) said this part was when Big Boss accepted Solid Snake as the man who had surpassed him.

      • MrVux007

        Unfortunately i cant agree with u…..keep in mind that word *MAYBE*……maybe the world would have been a better place if the Outer Heaven uprising was completed,maybe the whole world would have ended ….maybe this maybe that .etc ….Solid Snake is his legacy,but i don’t see him as greater man …. pls dont take this as *Im right you are wrong* sort of answer ….i respect your and Mr.Kojimas opinion,we are after all fellow MGS fanatics….but things that people experience in life makes them change how they look at things,ive used to look at Big Boss as villain even after MGS3,but i experienced so much in my life since ive actually played MG 1 and 2 that ive changed my mind about Big Boss…..perhaps even Kojima would be the same …….as i said its all matter of perspective/moral compass of people…..also not all of demons are bad(if we are rly getting into this mythological stuff :P )

        • SolidKenny87

          “keep in mind that word *MAYBE*”

          I’m so sick of this argument. The following is from Project Itoh’s official novelization of MGS4, which you can find on Amazon for $15. This passage is said after Big Boss’ “had you been in my place” line.

          “And Big Boss accepted Snake-as the man who had surpassed him. As the man who he, along with The Boss and Zero, had created, and who had overturned the world he had wrongly brought about. Though he might never have considered Snake his son, he respected Snake has a person. What could that be if not a father’s praise for his son?”

          In the book’s afterward, Kojima had nothing but praise and respect for Itoh, claiming he is one of the few people he can trust to understand and convey his messages. In the (sadly untranslated) book, “My Beloved Memes”, Kojima even went so far as to call Project Itoh his successor, and laments his untimely death.

          http://metagearsolid.org/2014/06/revengeance-taken-seriously/4/

          So, when I say that what Big Boss said was surefire proof that Solid Snake was the better man, regardless of his use of the word “maybe”, I do so with confidence that it reflects the creator’s view of the story.

          I respect that you admire Big Boss. Hell, I love Big Boss in Peace Walker. Solid Snake and Big Boss are heroes to me. But in MGSV/the MSX games, Big Boss isn’t that hero anymore.

  • warnerve

    I’m wondering when exactly we’ll see Big Boss’ turn from good to evil. At the end of GZ he’s still a good character so I don’t think we will see a changed BB after he wakes up from his coma,neither after he rescues Kaz. I think its gonna happen at the middle of the game, something really fucked up will probably happen.

    • Hans Maulwurf

      i guess he will be highly angry because of destruction of mother base. he doesn’t know it was skullface’s men, what does he think who was behind that attack? US Government? UN? Zero/Cipher?

      • warnerve

        He probably think it’s Cipher’s doing as Kaz blamed them at the end of GZ. I bet they did it too haha.I think Skullface will get a massive beating by Big Boss and after he finds out that Skullface is after Zero as well, Big Boss will ”forgive” Skullface, and he will join BB. That’s how I see it happening.

  • quikst3f

    You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain….love the mgs world

  • quikst3f

    You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Love mgs first time posting…..good work you have done here bravo

  • LukesAlike

    Think of it. You’re playing as a villain in a Metal Gear game.

  • thetrooper1989

    Someone needs to do a Kony 2012 spoof with Big Boss. Please…

  • George Sears

    I want to see Big Boss’ reaction when (if?) Miller reveals he knew about “the sons”.

    • Venom Snake

      His reaction:

      [ ! ]

  • rickross

    what happend to Chico? did he survive the crash

    • MrVux007

      i think that he didn’t….but then again if Morpho survived the crash,then there is the possibility for him to be alive …but right now there is no info and we should wait for the game to come out :)

  • Fraaancis

    I’m sorry, can someone rephrase why Raiden appeared in MGS 2?
    I didn’t understand that part, my english isn’t good enough.

    • Venom Snake

      To see how people see Solid, how it looks what he ding trough an outsider perspective, basically Raiden was You, The Player!

      • Fraaancis

        Thanks, from that point i guess Quiet will play more larger role in a game than i thought before.
        http://www.metalgearinformer.com/?p=8675

        • Venom Snake

          If Kojima will pull a Raiden during The Half of Phantom Pain with Quiet, i would be really happy!

  • thetrooper1989

    Am I mistaken but isn’t Solidus the perfect Big Boss clone and hence looks the most similar to him? I tht Liquid and Solid Snake looked very different from Big Boss.

    • Venom Snake

      Exactly, that’s why Kiefer is doing Big Boss at 40/50 years old!

      Solidus in MGS2 does sound similar to Kiefer’s Snake Voice!

  • Guest

    I dont want a new action figure ! (i already have a big boss, solid snake, Gray Fox, lol) Give me the release date dammit!!! <o